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View Full Version : Converting kit car seven to Supersports - what's needed


sevaun
15-10-08, 21:39
I have competed in the Harewood championship for 4 seasons in my self built Sevaun/locost with moderate success on a low budget in the Kit car 1600 class. I've decided I need more excitement now and intend developing the seven into a hillclimb supersports. That in mind I've bought an XE Vauxhall engine and intend running dry sumped on R1 carbs/ Megajolt etc etc tec. Having sorted a source of reasonably priced power ( probably about 185-195HP) I am now planning the chassis mods and have moved into a couple of unknown areas:
1. Wheels and tyres - What sort of width rims should I use and what tyres. I can buy used F3/FRenault slicks for very little money which suits my pocket, but used hillclimb slicks seem to be like rocking horse ****. Could I get away with circuit tyres or will they be too hard?
2. I have an English back axle with Quafe ATB LSD and 4.1 diff , but standard drive shafts. Will this set up be ok for Supersports power and grip?

Can anyone out there help with experienced advice please.

thanks

Richard

animal
19-10-08, 16:57
not sure whether you will be able to run in hc supersports but i couldnt tell you why. as for rims and tyres i would say 8 and 10x13 and 7.2 20 front and 920 rear. without proper hillclimb slicks you will really struggle to keep on the pace.
i used to run 2.0bdg power through standard enlgish shafts and 9" slicks and never had a problem. i would say leave it unless you start breaking them.
as a side point has anyone got the regulations on the vauxhall supersports engines??

blackx
19-10-08, 19:18
I thought all the Hillclimb Supersports had to be crossflow engines ?

Perhaps I'm getting confused somewhere ?

sevaun
20-10-08, 13:14
I thought all the Hillclimb Supersports had to be crossflow engines ?

Perhaps I'm getting confused somewhere ?

According to the Blue Book Hillclimb Supersports is any engine up to 2litres, but must be front engine/rear wheel drive

Richard

Brib
20-10-08, 17:24
According to the Blue Book Hillclimb Supersports is any engine up to 2litres, but must be front engine/rear wheel drive

Richard

Hi Richard,

The MSA will provide you with regulations for Hillclimb Supersports engines if you ask them. Sadly, I don't think twin cams are permitted. Okay in Sports Libre though.

Brian

sevaun
20-10-08, 20:05
Hi Richard,

The MSA will provide you with regulations for Hillclimb Supersports engines if you ask them. Sadly, I don't think twin cams are permitted. Okay in Sports Libre though.

Brian

Thanks Brian I'll check with them.


Richard

animal
22-10-08, 18:38
According to the Blue Book Hillclimb Supersports is any engine up to 2litres, but must be front engine/rear wheel drive

Richard

fyi, the only engines allowed are 1700 ford crossflow or 2000 c20xe in the hc supersports class. think you must be looking at upto 2000 libre.

Brib
22-10-08, 19:06
fyi, the only engines allowed are 1700 ford crossflow or 2000 c20xe in the hc supersports class. think you must be looking at upto 2000 libre.

Is the " 2000 c20xe " for the rear engined cars? Are they interchangable, could I put a Vauxhall engine in a front engined Mallock and still be eligible for Hillclimb Supersports class

volvorsport
22-10-08, 19:38
whay all the talk about sports libre ?

surely you would be in the over 1700cc kit car class ?

sevaun
22-10-08, 21:30
The reason I want out of the kit car classes is that I'd rather invest the compulsory cost of road tax and insurance (total waste of over 200 as I never use the car on the road) into my racing. I had contemplated running in modified kit/production car class, but MSA and Harewood will not accept this. They reckon that although the car is roadgoing and looks pretty much like a Caterham/Westfield it is not a production car. Seems a little odd as they allow the car to run in roadgoing kit car class.
So that just leaves me with Supersports or Sport libre. Sports libre looks a little too competitive mixing it with mid engined radicals etc. So Supersports it is then.

Major Mallock
24-11-08, 00:38
Having trod the same ground your going over, here is what I found. Clubmans supersport regulations are quite specific, and whilst the origin base of Clubmans were Lotus 7 type vehicles, things evolved. You will need to write to the MSA to get a copy of the Supersports req's, whilst they are readily available they are not in the Blue Book. The engine can be either a Xflow up to 1700 or a Vauxhall XE naturally asperated at standard bore. The decision on which up take based on which are the main events you are going to enter. Some clubs have an engine breaK at 1700, other at 2000 and you could therefore end up out of class.

However the summary of looking at the regs will result in you almost certainly being pushed into Sports Libre. The best way of getting into Supersports is to buy an old one! Sorry. Been there!

However if you wish to learn your own lessons and you have every right to do so, here is the answers to your questions:
Most Supertsports run 8" and 10" rims with 7.2" and 9"0 tyre respectively, The compound to use is the equivelent of Avon A40's. They have changed the spec number now but the latest info can be got from BMTR who supply all Avons. Alternatively you can use Hoosiers. These tyres can often be bought second hand. For Final drive ratio you will need 4.9 for the hills like Harewood and 3.9 or even 3.7 for Sprints like Aintree or Elvington
Good Luck, by the waySupersports and Sportslibre are both very competative, there isnt much between them on the stop watch. To play seriously in this league you need the right kit and it will still take you 2 seasons to understand whats needed.

AndyMil
24-11-08, 13:16
Looking at the programmes from '08, would you be better looking to go into Modprod(class B), rather than Supersports, there is going to be a hell of a lot of money needed to be spent to get it to supersports times, as record stand about there is nearly 8 seconds diff between the class you are in and Supersports, from the above comments I would say modprod is the way to go unless your pocket is bottomless.



PS, got a couple of pics of you last meeting if you let me have your E-mail, I'll send them.

sevaun
24-11-08, 13:38
Hi Andy
my problem is that my car is entirely self built and is therefore inelligable for mod prod which has a stipulation that a minimum of 100 cars must have been built. Kit car manufacturers have all in the main achived this level and hence entrants in kit car classes ie. westfield, silva, tiger avon and many more kit car builders don't have a problem. I run currently at Harewood in Class 4 kit cars and replicas class(Replicas is where my car fits in as it is a Lotus Seven/Caterham clone), but modprod is run to MSA rules and does not accept low volume (read 1 in my case) production cars.
Do you see my problem?
It also seems that Class 4/5 Harewood kit car/replica class might also be out of my reach from 2009 as MSA is tightening up on Class regs and probably force the Harewood organisers to apply the rules more stringently and only allow higher volume "production" kit cars to run in these classes.
It could be that I am forced out of competition altogether - at least with my own self built car. Good job the RAC/ 750 motor club were not so hard on self builders back in the 50's or we would not have a kit car class now as Lotus and Caterham would not have existed, nor many other clones thereof (Westfield etc)


Richard

AndyMil
24-11-08, 14:38
Understand the problem for your car re classes, but wether it is your own chassis or a "bought in" one, either way I would think it should be ok in kitcar, as Kitcar is what it says KIT ie it is built with parts from various sources, thats the way I always interpreted a kit to be, If you built it yourself and it's inelligable surely most of the early locosts will be too as they were built from the book at home and in sheds and cannot be "volume" built as such, each one is a seperate manufacturer:confused:

Steve Wilkinson
24-11-08, 16:30
Hi Andy
my problem is that my car is entirely self built and is therefore inelligable for mod prod which has a stipulation that a minimum of 100 cars must have been built. Kit car manufacturers have all in the main achived this level and hence entrants in kit car classes ie. westfield, silva, tiger avon and many more kit car builders don't have a problem. I run currently at Harewood in Class 4 kit cars and replicas class(Replicas is where my car fits in as it is a Lotus Seven/Caterham clone), but modprod is run to MSA rules and does not accept low volume (read 1 in my case) production cars.
Do you see my problem?
It also seems that Class 4/5 Harewood kit car/replica class might also be out of my reach from 2009 as MSA is tightening up on Class regs and probably force the Harewood organisers to apply the rules more stringently and only allow higher volume "production" kit cars to run in these classes.
It could be that I am forced out of competition altogether - at least with my own self built car. Good job the RAC/ 750 motor club were not so hard on self builders back in the 50's or we would not have a kit car class now as Lotus and Caterham would not have existed, nor many other clones thereof (Westfield etc)


Richard

Richard, I am sorry to say that one-offs do not fit into either road going or mod prod. The quote I have been given is "the rules (old and new) require 20 chassis to be built".

The only place currently for one-offs would be Sports Libre!

minitici
24-11-08, 18:17
Taking Sprintman's observations regarding " SR's Classes" and "MSA's Categories", surely Clubs can create classes which encompass more than one category of car so long as the cars individually comply to their relevant category (safety?) regulations.

So for example 'modprod' class (roadgoing) could have cars from the following categories
a) Road Going Series Production Cars
b) Road Going Specialst Production Cars
c) Modified Limited Production Cars*
d) Modified Specialist Production Cars*
e) Sports Libre - sports racing cars*

* Cars must run in a road legal condition and on the specified tyres for the a) & b) categories.
The organisers could also specifically limit the 'modprod' class to exclude certain cars such as 'road legal' Radicals!

So the OP's one off kit car could compete in fully road legal condition, with the full safety requirements from Sports Libre, sports racing cars on list 1a tyres - problem solved :D

Steve Wilkinson
24-11-08, 19:06
Taking Sprintman's observations regarding " SR's Classes" and "MSA's Categories", surely Clubs can create classes which encompass more than one category of car so long as the cars individually comply to their relevant category (safety?) regulations.

So for example 'modprod' class (roadgoing) could have cars from the following categories
a) Road Going Series Production Cars
b) Road Going Specialst Production Cars
c) Modified Limited Production Cars*
d) Modified Specialist Production Cars*
e) Sports Libre - sports racing cars*

* Cars must run in a road legal condition and on the specified tyres for the a) & b) categories.
The organisers could also specifically limit the 'modprod' class to exclude certain cars such as 'road legal' Radicals!

So the OP's one off kit car could compete in fully road legal condition, with the full safety requirements from Sports Libre, sports racing cars on list 1a tyres - problem solved :D


The problem with the above suggestion is that several of the cars will be at a MAJOR disadvantage - i.e. they will be painfully slow compared to others in the 'amalgamated' class.

Road Legal Radicals are notoriously slow but will be quicker than say a Mod prod Mini on Road Tyres!

What you have suggested is the worst of all possible worlds! :confused:

minitici
24-11-08, 20:20
There will always be winners and losers no matter what classification system is used.
My suggestion would at least provide a 'class' to accommodate all those vehicles which don't currently (2010) have a home, other than sports libre, and are essentially 'road going' cars.

Again, the SR's could be specific to what modifications are permitted so that out-and-out sport libre cars don't disadvantage the genuine road legal racers.

Ideally the msa should listen to what the typical hillclimb / sprint competitor wants and come up with a sensible structure to encourage new competitors to have a go in their 'road cars' :mad:

Along with SportsLibre, I spent many years hillclimbing and sprinting totally underpowered cars in the road classes and being well and truly beaten by some very modified machinery. Was I downcast? - not a bit of it! I enjoyed every minute :)
At least my accidents were low speed - lol (just don't mention SportsLibre's low speed barrel roll in the GTM :D )

Radical
24-11-08, 20:47
(just don't mention SportsLibre's low speed barrel roll in the GTM :D )

not quite a barrel roll, just turned turtle on to the roof, luckily we had spent all those hours (days) re-skinning the chassis otherwise it would have ended up flat (with me in it). A roll cage is only a good as its mountings...

volvorsport
25-11-08, 00:43
i know what to do - buy a dutton . better still one registered on pre 73 plates .

i dont see 200 a year a waste when you could still use it on the road , and be in a competitive class unless they get you on the less than 20 chassis made .

Steve Wilkinson
25-11-08, 10:14
i know what to do - buy a dutton . better still one registered on pre 73 plates .

i dont see 200 a year a waste when you could still use it on the road , and be in a competitive class unless they get you on the less than 20 chassis made .


There were certainly more than 20 Duttons made! Problem is which model?

:confused:

sevaun
25-11-08, 16:41
i know what to do - buy a dutton . better still one registered on pre 73 plates .

i dont see 200 a year a waste when you could still use it on the road , and be in a competitive class unless they get you on the less than 20 chassis made .

Problem is I only use the car for about 25 mile a year on the road - to and from the mot station. If I only needed an mot to meet the regs as a roadgoing car I would trailer it and not bother with tax or insurance. The 750 motorclub regs for the Locost racing championship are set out like this. The stipulation that the cars have to be mot'd for Locost racing means that they are effectively roadgoing and this prevents way out stripped down specials being built. At the same time keeps costs down by negating the need ,hassle and cost of insurance and dreaded Road Fund Tax.
Let's face it 200 a year tax and insurance would be better spent doing a couple more meetings would'nt it?

Richard

No Imagination
26-11-08, 20:22
A couple of points you may find interesting - as far as I know there is no 'national' i.e. MSA Leaders class for 'Supersports' next year, these cars will be amalgamated with Sports Libre so my guess is that within a couple of years other regional championships will possibly follow the trend.

The VX engine is I think restricted to a standard 'red top' XE spec with the exception of the inlet (choke restricted 40's or 45's) and obviously dry sump/custom exhaust.

The main difference between a 'locaterfield' chassis/layout and a Clubmans chassis is the location of the engine, in the Clubmans chassis the engine is set much further back (defined in the regs as 'XX' mm from the rear plug hole to the rear axle).

If I was doing the conversion I would build to Sports Libre regs, forget the VX engine and install a std Hayabusa as far back in the chassis as practicality and the regs allow...........