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gsyracer
24-01-09, 20:37
I thought rather than start up a new thread each time I ask a question I'd just use my own thread as it will save having several topics with just 1 question and 6 answers which will then get left in the dark for the rest of time.

Ok, starting off...

I remember a while ago that some clever chap built a sequential gearbox using Kawasaki motorbike gearbox internals, with his own custom made casing..

Anyone know if anyone makes such a thing? (Imagine a motorbike engine, but without the engine part...)

redturner37
24-01-09, 21:28
With one or two exceptions in the dark and distant past, from my knowledge all motorcycles have had sequentional gear change, even my old Triumph 250 with tank mounted hand change. A buddy of mine once chopped the gearbox off a Aermacchi 250 and bolted it to a water cooled Anzani we were experimenting with, after we had welded several plates on to support it in the frame. However, to your question, I dont know of anyone who is building boxes as you describe.

Radical
24-01-09, 21:41
I have seen someone selling the one off gearbox you mention, but can't remember where and certainly there is no one selling them commercially that I know of.

Twin4tys
24-01-09, 22:50
Teme Valley Terrapin had one for sale a few months ago on another site, was suitable for FERWD layout

Fireblade
25-01-09, 01:25
George Bewlay of Clifton on Teme was your man for this stuff. Now sadly retired but his gearboxs are legend.

gsyracer
25-01-09, 02:40
Ok, so next question: Would it be possible to make one? I know it would take some doing and a handy person with CNC knowledge etc

(I know this sounds daft but bear/bare?? with me)

redturner37
25-01-09, 13:44
It depends what engine you are going to drive through it and the layout you are planning, also how many gears you require. There are lots of gearboxes out there which you could almost drop straight in depending on layout. I would suggest that almost without exception every 500 F3 car is using an AMC/Norton box and all these of course are sequential and will take some real bang. Far too many years ago we put an outfit together with a 1000cc NSU Prince motor driving through a Manx box, ok, only about 95 bhp at the time, but it certainly took the power. It was mounted across the frame with a countershaft to line everything up to mate with the back sprocket. As I said, it all depends what you are planning to use the box for. Reg Phillips and men of that ilk would sort your problems over a cup of tea and they never heard of CNC.

will loughridge
25-01-09, 15:30
Graham Dyson at nova racing transmissions (novaracing.co.uk) is anouther man who knows his stuff about bike gearboxs, they do all sorts of gear sets, dry sump systems, custom machining etc, very helpfull i have found, give them a call.

gsyracer
25-01-09, 15:39
Well I don't want to give too much away (although will probably never get done like most other things) but it's a twin cylinder (side by side) motor and hasn't got a gearbox, but has CVT transmission (if you can call it transmission...) hence why I'm just seeing if it's possible to get/make/find just a gearbox which I can join onto that, and what it would require to get one.

I suppose I could always find a seized engine and chop the engine casing off to leave the gearbox casing/internals and either modify it to what I want or use the casing as a basis for a new one??

Radical
25-01-09, 15:46
sounds like a lawn mower :)

gsyracer
25-01-09, 16:02
I've never seen a twin cylinder lawnmower before... But no it's not a lawnmower...

iranoff
25-01-09, 16:09
Sounds more like a snowmobile engine to me.


Iranoff

redturner37
25-01-09, 18:03
sounds like a lawn mower :)

I thought the same, but didnt want to upset him.........again.

redturner37
25-01-09, 18:11
I suppose I could always find a seized engine and chop the engine casing off to leave the gearbox casing/internals and either modify it to what I want or use the casing as a basis for a new one??

Now you're thinking like a real engineer, so get your hands dirty and do it. Millions of years ago when Rod Quaife started out, he was doing 5 speed conversions for Norton/AMC box's, now if you could get one of those, wow. However, you are probably going to have to stick with chopping a modern 6 speeder up, and weld some mounting lugs on. It's so easy Gippo, go for it.

Radical
25-01-09, 18:38
They would do it on Scrapheap Challenge in 12 hours...

redturner37
25-01-09, 19:21
They would do it on Scrapheap Challenge in 12 hours...
and it would work, you can always refine it later. In fact, if you took all the bits to India, they would do it in a couple of days. Very ingenius those people, saw a Royal Enfield to which they had fitted a Petter AC1 diesel engine. I think it only fired every other lamp post.

iranoff
25-01-09, 20:13
saw a Royal Enfield to which they had fitted a Petter AC1 diesel engine. I think it only fired every other lamp post.

Could just see Gypo shoehorning this (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2790498640099986903jWzXop) into a single seater.


Iranoff

MaxRPM
25-01-09, 20:49
The Norton Rotary engine ran with a gearbox in it's own case, containing Yamaha Genesis gears, and I think Tran-X did a stand alone motorcycle gearbox but it wasn't cheap. Harley Davidson is another source of a separate gearbox readily available and able to take reasonable torque loadings.

redturner37
25-01-09, 21:52
Could just see Gypo shoehorning this (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2790498640099986903jWzXop) into a single seater.


Iranoff
My goodness, great picture, used to have at least half a dozen on the bench for rebuilding. Ours were in fridge units and did unbelievable hours in service. You had to set the c.r up with little bits of core solder on top of the piston. Cracking motors and I had a twin cylinder version (AC2) in a 30' sloop for a while.

redturner37
25-01-09, 21:54
The Norton Rotary engine ran with a gearbox in it's own case, containing Yamaha Genesis gears, and I think Tran-X did a stand alone motorcycle gearbox but it wasn't cheap. Harley Davidson is another source of a separate gearbox readily available and able to take reasonable torque loadings. There is a special (Hardy ?) that I have seen at SW which runs a Harley box, bloody great thing which should take anything.

temevalleyterrapin
26-01-09, 09:07
Hi,

I still have the gearbox discussed above, it is basically a motorcycle gearbox (so it is dog box, sequential) attached to a car bellhousing so as described above it is suitable for a Front Engine Rear Wheel Drive setup with an output for a propshaft on the back end.
if you want pictures or want to buy it and cut off or modify or whatever to the bellhousing then drop me a PM or ring me on 07879 475562 Cheers.
We are not talking a lot of money either, i just want to see it go to a useful home. After all it is only made from standard motorcycle parts.

redturner37
26-01-09, 09:19
Would be most interested in seeing some pictures Richard.

temevalleyterrapin
26-01-09, 10:49
Ta daaaa!!!

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k41/TemeValleyTerrapin/077.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k41/TemeValleyTerrapin/080.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k41/TemeValleyTerrapin/082.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k41/TemeValleyTerrapin/086.jpg

Adam
27-01-09, 13:58
Now that IS interesting!

I take it the primary reduction gear isn't included in that package?

redturner37
27-01-09, 16:07
That is such a neat piece of kit which Gippo could play with to his hearts content. It looks like a mod'ed Ford clutch housing, and should bolt straight on. Take a chance and buy it.

gsyracer
27-01-09, 17:39
I wouldn want to ruin the handywork thats already gone into it.

iranoff
27-01-09, 17:44
I wouldn want to ruin the handywork thats already gone into it.

Why not? Thats what special building is all about, constant development that improves on what went before, taking it another step forward.

Anyway, if you buy the gearbox off Richard and get it working you will qualify for a part 2 NVQ from the Redturner School of Motorsport.

There would be lots of advice from members and it would make a great ongoing story for the forum.


Iranoff

gsyracer
27-01-09, 17:47
Nah, better off as it is. Trust me, id only end up buggering it up and thoring it away so best leave someone else get it. I don't need the bell housing for starters so would be a waste...

redturner37
27-01-09, 18:15
Nah, better off as it is. Trust me, id only end up buggering it up and thoring it away so best leave someone else get it. I don't need the bell housing for starters so would be a waste... Wrong approach Gippo, you would modify the bellhousing to suit your needs. I wish that piece of kit had been available years ago when I was experimenting, bloody great opportunity and you are missing it.

gsyracer
27-01-09, 18:17
No seriously I dont need the bell housing...

redturner37
27-01-09, 19:30
No seriously I dont need the bell housing...

In that case, practice your hacksaw skills and hack it off, then you have the gearbox you are hankering after and can fit it to what you have on the drawing board. It will save you having to have one made.

gsyracer
27-01-09, 20:03
Wheres the fun in that though? Might as well start from scratch eh? Plus if anything goes wrong I know how to fix it.

darcia1
29-01-09, 05:27
Great bit of kit as you say it........ Afew years ago we wre toying with building a car with a 3 cylinder 2 stroke snow moblie motor init with a quaife rear this little motor had about 300 + hp and a cvt would have made great little car but with this box who knows ..... williams f1 team were toying with cvts until yhe fia banned it they even built a car and DC test drove it in its early development i recall a dutch company did the development .

Steve Wilkinson
29-01-09, 09:39
... williams f1 team were toying with cvts until yhe fia banned it they even built a car and DC test drove it in its early development i recall a dutch company did the development .

Was it DAF? :)

redturner37
29-01-09, 09:44
Was it DAF? :)
Jack Brabham certainly built a Formula 3 car using a DAF Variomatic gearbox, but I dont remember how successful it was/wasn't.

Steve Wilkinson
29-01-09, 11:44
Jack Brabham certainly built a Formula 3 car using a DAF Variomatic gearbox, but I dont remember how successful it was/wasn't.

The DAF company ran an F3 team for several seasons using both Mclaren and Tecno chassis.

:)

Fireblade
29-01-09, 11:54
Wheres the fun in that though? Might as well start from scratch eh? Plus if anything goes wrong I know how to fix it.

Carry on developing and building your gearbox and we will see you back in 2 years time for the other bits to make it work. Plenty of 2nd hand milling machines and like around at the moment in the auctions and scrappers. Can arrange a low loader and iron fairy, just sought the channel crossing to Guernsey.

What you really want is one of those cassette gearboxes such as the Honda Moto GP team use. They are the real McCoy.

redturner37
29-01-09, 14:18
Carry on developing and building your gearbox and we will see you back in 2 years time for the other bits to make it work. Plenty of 2nd hand milling machines and like around at the moment in the auctions and scrappers. Can arrange a low loader and iron fairy, just sought the channel crossing to Guernsey.

What you really want is one of those cassette gearboxes such as the Honda Moto GP team use. They are the real McCoy. I am somewhat confused here. First he asks who makes a case suitable for the gears to go in for a project, then when the problem is solved by a member offering a suitable bit of kit, then he doesnt want the bell housing, because he will ruin what he has. He doesnt have to touch the gearbox, just study it and learn all about it, then make his own.
Confused of Clifton.

gsyracer
29-01-09, 16:38
RedT,

A few pages back when I sarcasctly said "I suppose I could just get a bike engine and chop the gearbox off" you responded saying that's the way to do it...

So that's the way I'm going to do it.

I know it probably would be easier to get the one the TVTP has, but, why ruin something that someone else has taken a lot of effort into making?

AND the plus side is I know everything would have been done my way and I'll know (hopefully) what will go wrong.

In terms of the point of the thread, what I was trying to get across was if anyone knows where I could get the gearbox part on it's own (such as the V-Twin Harley style gearboxes you find on custom choppers etc.)

Steve Wilkinson
29-01-09, 18:19
I'm getting bored ........................ :rolleyes:

It's about time that Gypo asked another question! :D

gsyracer
29-01-09, 18:28
Ok if you insist...

How much do you want for the G.BOX TVTP??

:D

redturner37
29-01-09, 18:35
You know it makes sense, just sit it on the bench/dining room table and look at it, the ideas will flow. Within a short time you will be saying to yourself, why did he do it that way, or How can I improve that. Then if/when you get stuck, ask again, but please do something.......

Fireblade
30-01-09, 00:02
In terms of the point of the thread, what I was trying to get across was if anyone knows where I could get the gearbox part on it's own (such as the V-Twin Harley style gearboxes you find on custom choppers etc.)

What I and the even older timers such as redturner know as pre-units.
As favoured by the 40/50 BSA/Triumph?Norton companies and many others.
I only ever had one pre unit bike but I am sure that redturner can tell you many tales of interesting engine/gearbox combinations from days of yore and Les Leston helmets.
If I remember correctly it was Norton who made the strongest box.

The Harley one would be OK if you weren't planning to use a motor any more pokey than a Swatch motor.

RichardG
30-01-09, 00:11
I had a BSA A7 that was described as semi-unit construction with a separate gearbox that bolted to the back of the crancase.

Thye bike had a plunger frame rear suspension and a Watsonian single seat sidecar slung on the side. No speed trophies but bl**dy good fun. I even have a "Skill of Driving" award from an international BSA Owners rally in 1965. I came second out of an entry of three!

redturner37
30-01-09, 10:04
I had a BSA A7 that was described as semi-unit construction with a separate gearbox that bolted to the back of the crancase.

Thye bike had a plunger frame rear suspension and a Watsonian single seat sidecar slung on the side. No speed trophies but bl**dy good fun. I even have a "Skill of Driving" award from an international BSA Owners rally in 1965. I came second out of an entry of three! Great gear box and you could obtain a selection of close ratios for the box, some were Sturmey Archer and they may also have used Albion. One of the good boxes and would be ideal for a project was the Royal Enfield as they even had a small indicator which showed what gear you were in and a neutralizer button. Any man worth his salt could easily wire that indicator to dash mounted indicator warning to show at a glance what gear you were in.....

image
30-01-09, 11:41
What I and the even older timers such as redturner know as pre-units.
As favoured by the 40/50 BSA/Triumph?Norton companies and many others.
I only ever had one pre unit bike but I am sure that redturner can tell you many tales of interesting engine/gearbox combinations from days of yore and Les Leston helmets.
If I remember correctly it was Norton who made the strongest box.

The Harley one would be OK if you weren't planning to use a motor any more pokey than a Swatch motor.


Might be interesting if someone knows what gearboxes some of the early (and later) drag bikes used --- twin engined Nortons or Harley's tuned to the max running on rocket fuel would have produced a bit more power than a Swatch motor and have been run through some stand alone Pre-unit style gearbox.

K

Fireblade
30-01-09, 12:54
A local friend of mine ran Southern Rock II, a Harley dragster, for some time. Will have to ask what the box was but I can tell you it weren't a HArley one.

redturner37
30-01-09, 13:26
Might be interesting if someone knows what gearboxes some of the early (and later) drag bikes used --- twin engined Nortons or Harley's tuned to the max running on rocket fuel would have produced a bit more power than a Swatch motor and have been run through some stand alone Pre-unit style gearbox.

K I remember lots of the 'big' engined dragsters had only two gears which were heavier than standard, in a modified box.

darcia1
31-01-09, 03:30
Talbot is using a three speed drag box in his dallara bike engined car here in Aus i wiil speak to him and get him to post his thoughts Also i will research which dutch company developing the cvt with Williams f1 of to the hillclimb to watch practice

talbot
01-02-09, 09:58
There is a Harley Davison stand alone drag box that they state is unbreakable, on a bike it sits behind the motor and is completely independant to the motor, did not research any further for a top fuel gear set (almost) fit strait into our original box.

gsyracer
22-03-09, 18:54
Ok, latest query...

Is it possible to get a set of bearings with a 25mm bore, 38mm outer diameter and 7mm width?

I know 13mm (or 6.5mm) isn't a lot of room to fit fit some sort of actually bearing system. Just thought I'd ask.

I have a set of hubs with bearings having the same dimensions, just they have a 17mm bore, not 25mm

Fireblade
22-03-09, 19:47
61805-ZRS
Inside Dia: 25mm Outside Dia: 37mm Sealing: Sealed Width: 7mm
Rated 24,000RPM

Closest I can find from my catalogue.

gsyracer
23-03-09, 10:52
Thanks for that, will quickly check dimensions tonight, pretty sure it's a 38mm not 37mm.

Is it a sealed ball bearing type?

* and how much are they...?*

AndyBougourd
23-03-09, 12:02
Take a look here Gypos http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=0&sort=2a&search_3fields=1&term1=25&term2=37&term3=7&x=0&y=0

bugs

gsyracer
23-03-09, 12:17
Cheers Bugs :)

gsyracer
23-03-09, 15:26
Just as well I checked, the outer diamter is 35mm not 37mm... OOOPS

Had a quick look on the site Bugs posted but only got oil seals and fork seals - no bearings...

Is it still possible or is this a bit to close??

redturner37
23-03-09, 16:10
Just checked the site that Bugsy recommended and they have an unlimited amount of bearings, unfortunately you will need to measure, whatever you are dealing with a bit more acurately, they need to be exact, so use a proper measuring stick. Do you know what type of bearings you require, I only checked DGB. And as an afterthought, are you sure they are Metric.

Fireblade
23-03-09, 19:49
Thanks for that, will quickly check dimensions tonight, pretty sure it's a 38mm not 37mm.

Is it a sealed ball bearing type?

Read Gyppo, read. And they were around 7 apiece.
I said they were sealed and the part number gives it away as well.

Anyway moving swiftly on............
Have a look here for reference if you are struggling with the other site
Bearing Boys (http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Bearings-1005-c?gclid=CPuq99PYuZkCFYKB3godTzYK5w) I haven't used them I just use the site to search for bearings and associated bits. Near to where I live there are about 50 bearing sales companies vying for business so we aren't short on bearings here.

Measure them up properly with a vernier, internal callipers or what have you. As redturner says are you sure they are metric and not imperial.

The Japs play funny games with bearings especially in the auto market and it is common to find that a vehicle has a bearing in a common inner race size but a weird and wonderful outer race size.
Bearings for outboard motors are a particular pain in this respect I have found..

gsyracer
24-03-09, 10:24
It's for a set of hubs made by Italians and 99% of everything is in mm.

As for the "types" of bearing there are so many of them out there it just confuses me... :S

The bearings I need to get are pretty generic as they have to fit on Universal parts, just I need ones with a slightly larger bore. Think I sorted the problem out anyway...

redturner37
24-03-09, 12:29
Would love to know where you got the 99% from Gippo. If they need to fit a 'Universal' part, but you want a 'slightly' larger bore, then you may finish up having to machine the hub to accept a bearing with a 'slightly' larger outer race. Did you hear about the 'ball bearing tom cat and the vet',

gsyracer
24-03-09, 13:13
Forget it.