Draft Proposal for changes to Modified Series Production Car Category

[carl talbot]

Following on from the Saloon Libre Thread , which I think is a great idea but should be for the 'Specials' , the Wight Jr "Wacky Racers"

I think as many Mod Prod , 'steel shell' cars should be kept in Modified Series Production where possible .
On this basis I have started a new thread and will try and draft a few minor changes to the Modified Series Production Categories for you all to shoot down in flames !
If a sensible few changes can be achieved then I will submit them via my Motor Club [coincidentally I am to be Chairman next year- what have I let myself in for] to the MSA Speed Committee

Rough First Draft:-

12.6.1 to be deleted -

[12.6.1. The engine block must be externally identifiable
as that fitted to the original model or specified option
and it must remain in the same capacity class as the
original car or the manufacturer’s specified option for
the model and engine. Modification to all components
is permitted.]

Replaced with :-

12.6.1. If the engine block is not externally identifiable as that fitted , or forced induction is not original , to the model or specified option , capacity must not exceed 2000cc [including the forced induction 1.4 multiplier]. It must also be a car derived engine available through the normal commercial outlets of a major car manufacturer . Modification to all components is permitted .

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This should free up the engine regs. enough to be inclusive for current trends in car modifying/engine swaps and the increasing number and popularity of bolt on supercharger /turbocharger kits . It should also allow stage rally cars with production car engine swaps to enter Speed Events and compete in a comparable category to their Rally regs.
It will also prevent huge capacity/forced induction engines being fitted into tiny lightweight shells .
Prevent bespoke race engines being used.
It should also not render current competitors at a disadvantage.

---------

I have not looked in full detail at the chassis regs implications , but as a starting point maybe add to:

Chassis
12.4.1. The chassis or unitary construction must remain
to the manufacturer’s original specification in
construction and material within the wheel hub centres.
Re-positioning of suspension pick-up points and engine
mountings are permitted.
12.4.2. Inner wheel arches only may be modified to
allow the attachment of damper mountings.
12.4.3. It is only permitted to make holes for the
passage of cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulic, instrument
or fire extinguisher lines as per Vehicle Regulations. All
redundant holes must be covered with metal plates.
12.4.4. Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed.
12.4.5. Bulkheads or inner wings may be modified to
permit the clearance of the induction system. This shall
be understood to include air induction ducting,
manifolding, trumpets/ram pipes for engine carburetion
or fuel injection system only. A maximum clearance
dimension of 7.75cm will be allowed for any protrusion,
only in the engine compartment.

Adding:
12.4.6. With the exception of 4 wheel drive and Specialist Rally Cars , Category 1 Rally cars are permitted if a current CCLB is produced and they fully comply with R.48.


-------------

Here are the relevant Rally Regs in The Book -


46.2. Category 1. Those that have been homologated
in Groups ‘A’ or ‘N’ of the FIA Appendix ‘J’, or Groups
1, 2, 3 or 4 of the 1981 FIA Appendix ‘J’, Non
homologated Series Production Cars, or Specialist
Rally Cars.
46.2.1. A Specialist Rally Car is a vehicle of which at
least 20 examples are manufactured within a
consecutive twelve month period and is fitted with a
Series Production Car Engine or Specialist Competition
Engine.
46.2.2. Modifications are free within MSA Vehicle
Regulations and as defined below in 48.
46.2.3. The car must be in the configuration as
supplied by the manufacturer, with the engine (any
Series Production Car Engine or Specialist Competition
Engine) in the original location.
46.2.4. Cars must retain the original number of, and
location of, driven wheels, Front Wheel Drive (FWD),
Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) or Four Wheel Drive (4WD),
except where a 4WD car, other than a Specialist Rally
Car, is converted to Two Wheel Drive (2WD) without
structural alteration.

Body
48.1. The term body shall include bodywork, bodyshell,
unitary construction.
48.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler
and driver/passenger compartment sufficient to
prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel
tank constitutes part of a bulkhead between passenger
and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead
must be fitted. Additional fuel tank protection may be
required.
48.1.2. All bodyshells, inclusive of removable panels
and parts must be of the vehicle manufacturers
specified materials, specifications and minimum
thickness with the exception of bonnet, front wings,
bumpers, hatchbacks, tailgates and boot lids which
may be of alternative materials. Seam welding, and
localised gussets/reinforcement is permitted.
48.1.3. With the exception of cars accepted under 46.3,
front wings and rear wings/rear quarter panels, and
inner wings, may be modified solely for the purpose of
fitting wheel arch extensions.
48.1.4. With the exception of cars accepted under 46.3
(see 46.3.7), and cars with modifications conforming to
their homologation papers (46.2) floor pans, bulkheads
and transmission tunnels may not be modified other
than by localised alteration to accommodate the fitting
of an alternative engine and/or gearbox and/or
differential and/or axle, seats and exhaust.
48.1.5. Provision of access holes purely to facilitate use
of an alternative or modified gearbox control system
and/or braking system is permitted.
48.1.6. The internal routing of pipes and wires, and
safety equipment is permitted.
48.1.7. The conversion of left to right hand drive is
permitted including necessary accompanying
modifications.
48.1.8. Glass sunroofs are not permitted. Sunroofs may
be of a non-shattering solid rigid material other than
glass. Any sunroof must be firmly secured in the closed

Rallying (R)
position. The sunroof aperture may be closed by solid
material permanently fitted in place.
48.1.9. Windscreens to be of laminated type only.
48.1.10. Side windows if of glass must be of laminated
or toughened glass and if of toughened glass must
be coated on the inside with a clear transparent safety
film.
48.1.11. Where advertising is allowed on windscreens it
must not obscure the driver’s vision nor cover more
than one third of the depth of the visual area of the
windscreen.
48.1.12. The fitting of mud flaps of a flexible material of
4mm minimum thickness behind each wheel extending
to a minimum of 40mm each side of the tyre tread and
to within 80mm of the ground when the car is
unoccupied is mandatory.
48.1.13. Towing eyes of adequate strength and size
must be fitted to, or carried for fitting to, the front and
rear of the vehicle. They must be painted a distinctive
and contrasting colour.


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Let it commence

Cheers
Carl

[Minifixation]

Easier would be to just modify the original para as;

[12.6.1. The engine block must be from a mass produced
motor car and be within 10% of the same cubic capacity
(inc multipliers) as the engine fitted to the original model
or specified option. It must remain in the same capacity
class as the original car or the manufacturer’s specified option
for the model and engine. Modification to all components is permitted.]

This would ensure that folks can't shove in a 1998cc Vaux into a Mini and try to sneak into Mod Prod , but it would allow a Suzuki Swift conversion. Also resticting cc's to 2000 would make it unfair if someone wanted to fit a modern V8 in an old Rover SD so I'm suggesting the 10% bit as the limit to cc's.

All else should be as per the current Mod Prod regs for simplicity & as I have no clue about rally cars I'll not comment on that bit.

[windy]

Trying to get the MSA to write rules that read correctly and make sense will be a non starter.
I have never known an organisation to be so bad at it as the MSA.

Yes your proposal is very good.

Regarding engines:

The MSA did try to ban "specialist competition engines" from rallying but there was obvious uproar from the manufacturers such as Millington who would have gone bust had they implemented the rule.
Millington used to use the Ford block but I think they now have their own completely bespoke engine built solely from all their own new parts. These engines ARE allowed in rallying.

There is a list of "specialist competition engines" that are regarded as "mass produced" somewhere. You should include these.

[Eric_M]

I'm sorry a can't agree with your proposal. The engine fitted to the car is important. A mini is not a mini without an A-series in it, fitting it with another make of engine makes it a complete hybrid and not a Series Production Car. Fitting a Turbocharger, or Supercharger to an engine is in the rules already, so i don't see what this does in that situation.
The term is Modified, in Modified Series Production Car, which is why the major components should stay the same as where fitted in production, not throw out the bits you don't like and fit the latest ones you can find.
I used to run in Modified Limited Production Cars with the Clan. but since the change of category last year i now have to run in Specialist Production Cars. I agree with the change to make it 1000 cars, as it rules out the Specials and makes it more production based. But now you want to bring in more 'specials'.
Again to me (maybe i'm on my own here - won't be the last time), the engine fitted is fundamental part of the car, Audi Quattro with an S2000 engine ?, Ferrari with Pinto ?, the engine should be the production engine.

[windy]

Originally Posted by Eric_M

I'm sorry a can't agree with your proposal. The engine fitted to the car is important. A mini is not a mini without an A-series in it, fitting it with another make of engine makes it a complete hybrid and not a Series Production Car. Fitting a Turbocharger, or Supercharger to an engine is in the rules already, so i don't see what this does in that situation.
The term is Modified, in Modified Series Production Car, which is why the major components should stay the same as where fitted in production, not throw out the bits you don't like and fit the latest ones you can find.
I used to run in Modified Limited Production Cars with the Clan. but since the change of category last year i now have to run in Specialist Production Cars. I agree with the change to make it 1000 cars, as it rules out the Specials and makes it more production based. But now you want to bring in more 'specials'.
Again to me (maybe i'm on my own here - won't be the last time), the engine fitted is fundamental part of the car, Audi Quattro with an S2000 engine ?, Ferrari with Pinto ?, the engine should be the production engine.

When you have a mixture of brand new and very old cars in the same class it doesn't matter what engines they are fitted with.
New cars with modern engines have such a massive competitive advantage anyway so I'm not sure I understand your point.
To get decent power from an old engine you have to spend thousands, or you could spend a very small fraction of that and replace it with a modern engine.

[Minifixation]

Originally Posted by windy

The MSA did try to ban "specialist competition engines" from rallying but there was obvious uproar from the manufacturers such as Millington who would have gone bust had they implemented the rule.
Millington used to use the Ford block but I think they now have their own completely bespoke engine built solely from all their own new parts. These engines ARE allowed in rallying

Millington deffinately make their own blocks, I saw one in a screeming Escort Mk2 blasting up Olivers Mt this year having sneakily entered as Mod Prod As they are not mass produced engines & for the benefit of sprint/hillclimbing, they should be over in Saloon Libre with the other silly saloons.

IMHO the 'series production' bit should hold true for Car & Engine(block) otherwise it really would be taking the Mickey.

[animal]

Originally Posted by Minifixation

Millington deffinately make their own blocks, I saw one in a screeming Escort Mk2 blasting up Olivers Mt this year having sneakily entered as Mod Prod As they are not mass produced engines & for the benefit of sprint/hillclimbing, they should be over in Saloon Libre with the other silly saloons.

IMHO the 'series production' bit should hold true for Car & Engine(block) otherwise it really would be taking the Mickey.

far point but if you spent as much on a duratec as a millington i dont think you would be a million miles off?

windy..any idea what these specialist engine are? alloy block bdg's? im sure there has allready been modprods running them?

[RobertT]

Originally Posted by Eric_M

I'm sorry a can't agree with your proposal. The engine fitted to the car is important. A mini is not a mini without an A-series in it, fitting it with another make of engine makes it a complete hybrid and not a Series Production Car. Fitting a Turbocharger, or Supercharger to an engine is in the rules already, so i don't see what this does in that situation.
The term is Modified, in Modified Series Production Car, which is why the major components should stay the same as where fitted in production, not throw out the bits you don't like and fit the latest ones you can find. ne.

Exactly...

[RobertT]

Originally Posted by windy

When you have a mixture of brand new and very old cars in the same class it doesn't matter what engines they are fitted with.
New cars with modern engines have such a massive competitive advantage anyway so I'm not sure I understand your point.
To get decent power from an old engine you have to spend thousands, or you could spend a very small fraction of that and replace it with a modern engine.

Fastest modprod cars around are old cars. Because they weigh nowt. Where are the record holding modern cars, say 10-15 yrs old, you speak of in 1400-2000 mod prod?

[Radical]

Originally Posted by windy

When you have a mixture of brand new and very old cars in the same class it doesn't matter what engines they are fitted with.
New cars with modern engines have such a massive competitive advantage anyway so I'm not sure I understand your point.
To get decent power from an old engine you have to spend thousands, or you could spend a very small fraction of that and replace it with a modern engine.

time moves on, cars become obsolete, people get old, unfortunate but a fact of life.

The MSA takes the view that the engine is fundamental to defining what makes a Series Production car, change that and you have not modified the car but built a one off hybrid special.

I don't see that changing soon and has been said by others on here they are probably correct.