Draft Proposal for changes to Modified Series Production Car Category

[Minifixation]

Originally Posted by RobertT

This is why such cars should not run in modprod.....salon libra sounds just the place

I think I've got to agree with you.

But there are some lovely Mini's which are totally standard apart from a wee Suzuki Swift or Rover K Series motor tucked away under the bonnet. IMHO they should be allowed in Mod Prod with the KAD 16v engined Minis & those with BMW Bike heads. All are just modified Mini's.

To say that a Mini is only a modified production car if the a-series block is still in there is silly, if heads, rods, pistons, crank and all internals are 'free' then the block should be 'free' too, as long as it's from a mass produced motorcar.

[Bunman]

Cancelled post. 12.5.1 has changed but does not alter anything due to nomenclature and defenitions wording of silouhette.

Confirmed by MSA.

[fiestajohn]

If that is correct, Sports Libre will be a big class next year, and Modified Saloons will be deserted.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Alpinepg

Sadly its true - the MSA are pretty intransigent and seem to be happy to sit by while speed events slowly die rather than be inventive and look to do something towards encouraging new competitors who would otherwise not be interested. I think its fair to say the average age of speed competitors is ever increasing and the numbers are falling, as are the numbers of venues.....and all the while the MSA fiddle away!

You must always remember that the decisions are made by a committee. If anyone wishes to put their names forward to go onto the committee then I suggest that they do so. As for the MSA being "happy to sit by while speed events slowly die" I think that you have no idea about what happens in these committees and very little grasp of what is involved in changing any regulations within our sport.

As for a solution I am all in favour of Enzo Ferrari's take on committees - "They should be made up of an odd number of members numbering less than 3!"

[judgie]

i think mod prod should be tighened up a bit and policed a bit better. it should be production cars that are modeified. so no engine swaps not even head swaps. if that model car came with a that engine then fine. not as it seems to be now, i'll run it and see if any one notices that the engine is wrong.
a libre car should be just that , free.
i run in sports libre and yes i dont stand a chance of winning the class, above 2 liter sports libre and i run a vw beetle with `150bhp so never going to be the fastest car out there.
That wont stop me coming out and having some fun, the thing that stops me at the moment is cash. hopefully next year that should change.

[windy]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

You must always remember that the decisions are made by a committee. If anyone wishes to put their names forward to go onto the committee then I suggest that they do so. As for the MSA being "happy to sit by while speed events slowly die" I think that you have no idea about what happens in these committees and very little grasp of what is involved in changing any regulations within our sport.

As for a solution I am all in favour of Enzo Ferrari's take on committees - "They should be made up of an odd number of members numbering less than 3!"

But certain committee members who have their own personal agenda / view on how things should be run will not put a view forward for discussion unless they agree with it themselves.
You can go to a committee with a new view held by a majority but it won't necessarily get discussed. If it isn't even discussed then what hope have competitors got to change the rules for their benefit?
The committe also has to convince the MSA so if the MSA don't agree with their proposals then things won't be changed.

I just cannot believe the current new rules for rallying have been decided by committee because it definitely does not represent the majority view of competitors. There is massive uproar about the MSA banning certain well known cars for 2012 at the moment. There is even a f*a*c*e*b*o*o*k campaign running. It is definitely the MSA who are to blame for ruining our sport.

[redturner37]

Originally Posted by windy

But certain committee members who have their own personal agenda / view on how things should be run will not put a view forward for discussion unless they agree with it themselves.
You can go to a committee with a new view held by a majority but it won't necessarily get discussed. If it isn't even discussed then what hope have competitors got to change the rules for their benefit?
The committe also has to convince the MSA so if the MSA don't agree with their proposals then things won't be changed.

I just cannot believe the current new rules for rallying have been decided by committee because it definitely does not represent the majority view of competitors. There is massive uproar about the MSA banning certain well known cars for 2012 at the moment. There is even a f*a*c*e*b*o*o*k campaign running. It is definitely the MSA who are to blame for ruining our sport.

You wouldn't expect your local MP to vote for something he didnt agree with and as for putting a view forward, well he is damned if if does and damned if it's not what certain licence holders want....

[carl talbot]

Originally Posted by Eric_M

fitting it with another make of engine makes it a complete hybrid and not a Series Production Car.

Fitting a Turbocharger, or Supercharger to an engine is in the rules already, so i don't see what this does in that situation.

The term is Modified, in Modified Series Production Car, which is why the major components should stay the same as where fitted in production, not throw out the bits you don't like and fit the latest ones you can find.

I agree with the change to make it 1000 cars, as it rules out the Specials and makes it more production based.

Fair comments

The reasoning behind my proposal is to 'keep' cars in Mod Prod that are eligible for Mod Prod [except for their engine change] rather than have them shunted into Sports Libre .
This is to try and grow/stimulate the Mod Prod Category .

How would you feel about Mod Prod Series eligible cars [but with engine changes ] going into Mod Prod Specialist Category ?

The reason for including forced induction [ under 2000cc ] is that with the current rule [ 'must remain in capacity class ..' ] adding a supercharger/turbo , which is one of the most popular current forms of tuning/modifying [this is especially big in the classic mini scene] , causes otherwise perfectly legal Mod Prod cars to be shunted into Sports Libre. These cars would 'normally' just move up a capacity class in Mod Prod ? !

[Eric_M]

Carl
I think that is a sensible idea, and does match the rallying rules mentioned. The Modified Specialist Prod rules are

12.2. Modified Specialist must have been originally
Production Cars available through the normal
commercial channels of the manufacturer in quantities
of not less than 20 chassis within 12 consecutive
months.

wheras Modified Series Prod says

12.1. Modified Series. Must have been originally
Production Cars available through the normal
commercial channels of the manufacturer in quantities
of not less than 1,000 vehicles within 12 consecutive
months.

Note, Series says Cars, and Specialist says Chassis. big difference.
Also they only quote minimum numbers, anything over 20 chassis is fine.
I've always assumed the engine regs, mean that for Specialist, you can fit any mass produced engine

12.6.2. With the exception of any engine fitted to a
vehicle complying with 12.1, the engine must be of a
make and type produced in at least 1,000 identical
units and fitted to a vehicle originally available through
the normal commercial channels of a land vehicle
manufacturer.

So in conclusion, a car with engine swaps can run in Modified Specialist.
But then again i'm no lawyer, and struggle with some of the big words.

P.s. A Mini with a Red top in is still not eligible because of these rules.

12.7.1. Transmission layout to remain as original. (maybe alright ?)

12.6.6. Engine and transmission must remain in a
similar position within the vehicle and in the same
position relative to each other as in the original
model. ( definitely doesn't comply unless you sit the Red top on top of the gearbox)

[carl talbot]

Originally Posted by RobertT

Fastest modprod cars around are old cars. Because they weigh nowt. Where are the record holding modern cars, say 10-15 yrs old, you speak of in 1400-2000 mod prod?

Is this not just because the older cars have had that much more time being developed to their full potential ?

All things being equal in the driving/engineering department , it is usually the ones that have spent the most money that are the most competitive .


As you havn't been forthcoming with an example of the advantaged/disadvantaged cars you talk about --

Can we take Grahamb's beautifully prepared Fiesta as a perfect example of an otherwise Mod Prod eligible car [ except for the engine swap ] as one of these "old lightweight shells" that you refer to ?

He could have had built a full house , just under 2000cc , BDA headed Crossflow on full management.
Other than about £10,000 and a few kilograms ,
what is the difference in performance with the duratec he has fitted ?