Problem for Road Modified Classes

[Goosey]

Originally Posted by GTI-DAN

Hi Steve, funny that you should say that is very unfair. I often think the same about your older cars - always much smaller, not as much safety devices, sound deadening, over engineering etc. so you have an inherent advantage of being a LOT lighter. Infact your 205 is around 400KG lighter than my 306. And we all know how much weight matters in this game!

So by having a newer car you can only hope to have better suspension set up or power etc.

and just to throw my marbles in, some cars were available with delete options from the factory.
so in effect you can have the same model car yet one be significantly lighter than the other, question is, is the heavier car breaking class regs by removing these delete options

[grahamb]

I know, let's log book all the cars, and introduce tamper proof seals, smart water, and strip engines of winning cars. Or maybe not.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by siany1997

I'd rather know what the MSA is trying to achieve with the regs. Is it safety or just trying to keep the costs down ?

Unfortunately the MSA has had the reverse impact in that for a lot of competitors it will have increased the costs. For those people who have 'modified' their cars and now find their vehicles outside of the specific Category Regulations applicable to the class they normally compete will have two alternatives. Either they will be faced with additional costs to bring the car in-line with the regs or a move into a different class governed by a different group of Category Regulations. Neither is a satisfactory outcome.

I do believe that the Speed Events Committee have acted with the best of intentions. They wish to get standardisation over the whole of the country. However the people paying the price of this are the competitors.

[siany1997]

I think the real way forward is to run it similar to the Dutch supercar regs, which from memory is free everything, but each class has a max bhp/ton limit.

The car has a box of electrickery fitted which measures power and obviously it's weighed.

So, in the long term, keep the standard classes as they are, keep the insurance,mot etc, 1a tyres,original engine/gearbox casing, but suspension is free in road modified.
Use different bhp/ton limits to split the category into 3 different classes.

A far better handicap system than capacity splits.

It could concievably put my car in 1a, up against the more developed pug 106's.

You tune/shed weight to the limit of the class you want to be in, or move up into the next class.


Each organising club buys some form of weighing a vehicle.

Each competitor buys the black box to fit to the car.

Yes there's initial cost, but even if the boxes cost £1000, it's cheaper than a good engine.

Aside from the cost of the black box, everyone already in road going modified wouldn't have to change anything on the car to comply with the new class splits.

Simply add/remove weight if you're on the border of moving up/down a class!!


Much more fun and simpler to let people do what they want to their cars, not have to worry about it as far as scrutineering/eligibility, and there would be a much more varied entry within each class.

Since time, money and technology restrict what can be checked at an event at the moment, wouldn't it be simpler and more cost effective for all concerned ?

Just a thought.

[siany1997]

Lifted from wikipedia so accuracy not confirmed.

Classes
Sport I - Vehicles over 5.2 kg/bhp. Engines maximum 3000cc and 6 cilindres.
Sport II - Regulations equal to Sport I. Organisation determines which class a team runs.
Supersport II - Vehicles over 4.3 kg/bhp but under 5.2 kg/bhp. Engines maximum 5000 cc and 8 cilindres.
Supersport I - Vehicles over 3.7 kg/bhp but under 4.5 kg/bhp. Minimum mass is 1080kg. Engines as in Supersport II
GT - Vehicles over 2.7 kg/bhp but under 3.6 kg/bhp. Minimum mass is 1180kg

[AllanMcD]

I think I will stick to Sports Libre it will save me £1000 on your proposed black box or do you proposed we all have them ?
Some lads have cars costing under £500 and its all the money in the world to them , should they have to spend £1000 ?
Allan

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by siany1997

I think the real way forward is to run it similar to the Dutch supercar regs, which from memory is free everything, but each class has a max bhp/ton limit.

The car has a box of electrickery fitted which measures power and obviously it's weighed.

So where are these cars going to be weighed? Very few venues used for Speed Events have the equipment let alone the space to set up an area for weighing cars and it strikes me as being a more expensive way to go!!!

Originally Posted by siany1997

Lifted from wikipedia so accuracy not confirmed.

Classes
Sport I - Vehicles over 5.2 kg/bhp. Engines maximum 3000cc and 6 cilindres.
Sport II - Regulations equal to Sport I. Organisation determines which class a team runs.
Supersport II - Vehicles over 4.3 kg/bhp but under 5.2 kg/bhp. Engines maximum 5000 cc and 8 cilindres.
Supersport I - Vehicles over 3.7 kg/bhp but under 4.5 kg/bhp. Minimum mass is 1080kg. Engines as in Supersport II
GT - Vehicles over 2.7 kg/bhp but under 3.6 kg/bhp. Minimum mass is 1180kg

Inaccuracy guranteed if it is Wikipedia!

[dennis.doyle]

I respectfully beg to differ - within the last year there was a serious bit on Radio 4 comparing the accuracy of Wiki & Encyclopedia Britanica & the result was a draw. Wiki has some crap in it mostly cos it covers contentious subjects & even then it's surprisingly good. Where it wins hands down is the fact that the old encyclopedias are peer reviewed by old farts so they are always 10 years out of date.

Back on topic ... I rather like the power to weight ratio classes. Could be applied to single seaters & might put those horrible BECs back in their rightful places

Wouldn't bother with the £1K electronics & scales on site though - absolute non-starter when it comes to encouraging new starters. Something less draconian, e.g. annual printout from rolling road & weighbridge would be cheaper, more than enough, probably too much. 64ft & speed trap times would give a few hints if anyone was being outrageous.

We don't have proper policing now & we really don't want to pay for it in future. A minority always cheat in all walks of life but most of the rest of us consider them tossers & don't care that much.

That said, how about a roadgoing Gould with full ground effects undertray but with the latter moulded in lead to increase the overal weight just enought to get it into 1a & F/R balance & corner wiegths adjusted to perfection?

Think of any rule you like & someone will see it as a challenge & make the most of it.

[judgie]

surely this is more of a case for saloon libre? if its not standard then.......

[Ian Johnson]

I had a senario last year in Roadgoing 1c, one competitor i was up against was 9 seconds over 2 laps at Anglesey faster than me...........now i'm not a slow driver but i built my car to the rules and declared all modifications. i sought confirmation on induction and intercooler change from the MSA as i was concerned it would put me into Modified.
When looking at the said competitors car i don't think anything was eligible apart from the interior, talking to the chap he was running in excess of 550bhp, antilag, launch control, wrc spec tarmac suspension etc. I have since seen loads of parts for sale on racecars direct from this chap (wrc lower arms, lateral arms, hubs, drive shafts and all manner of sexy adjustable bits i can only dream of.
The outcome i moved my Road going by the book car into Modified to allow me to be competitive.