Vote of no confidence in MSA motor sport council

[Goosey]

Originally Posted by judgie

my take on this is we need a much simply set of rules and much tighter control from scrutes and clubs who run the championships.
Standard production should be just that standard on road legal list 1A tyres
Modified production still road legal but as long as its run in road spec and on any road legal tyre.
Compertion road cars, this is for the proper race/rally cars stripped, plastic windows , rose joints in the suspension etc but still road legal but with original type engines. this would catch a lot of the rally cars and one make class race cars.
Sports libra saloon. this is were ANY thing that does not fall into the above goes.
yes i know it is a very simplyfied list and does not cover the single seaters or the limted production stuff but as i have very limited knowledge of these cars i cant coment.
What ever happerns i plan to have my sports libra beetle out again next year and expect I'll be hopelessly outclassed at any round that theres another car in my class.
Cheers Rob

i like that idea a lot

[johnbull]

If you think your rule book is unclear, misleading, or any of a thousand words to say it's a load of rubbish, you want to try making heads or tails of the CSAI rule book (Italy).

As team manager I presented 5 cars for scrutineering at a hill climb in Italy 2 weeks ago. One of these was an extremely smart Group S 1600 Alfasud.

The scrut took one look at it and pronounced the seat expired. Yes, expensive OMP seats apparently expire after 4 years or something. Never mind the fact that they have only been sat upon for a total of about an hour in those 4 years.

Next he takes a look at the roll cage, another expensive OMP item.
"This won't pass" he says.
"Why", I ask.
"Because it's welded to the floor and the Group S roll cage should be bolted".
"But surely a welded cage is stronger since it becomes part of the structure?"
"That's got nothing to do with it, the book says it should be bolted".
"So does this mean we can't race this car?"
"Yes of course you can. In the historic class where you are allowed to weld in the cage".

Does that make any logical sense to any of you lot ? I would have thought a welded in cage would be a better bet whatever class you race in.

Oh, and son Josh's single seater car needs a certificate for the roll hoop from the manufacturer!!! Never mind the fact that the roll hoop is an integral part of the tub, and the car has been raced all over Europe and passed the scrutineers everywhere, and has a proper FIA passport.

Somebody compared Italian scrutineers to Maltese customs officers. They don't think they're doing their job properly if they're not being difficult.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by judgie

my take on this is we need a much simply set of rules and much tighter control from scrutes and clubs who run the championships.
Standard production should be just that standard on road legal list 1A tyres

There is a BIG problem with that idea - so many cars roll off the production line with List 1B tyres fitted as standard or even tyres that are not even listed by the MSA.

Originally Posted by judgie

Modified production still road legal but as long as its run in road spec and on any road legal tyre.

This sounds more like the current Road-going Category.

Originally Posted by judgie

Compertion road cars, this is for the proper race/rally cars stripped, plastic windows , rose joints in the suspension etc but still road legal but with original type engines. this would catch a lot of the rally cars and one make class race cars.

This is halfway between the current Road-going and Mod Prod - only one question why?

Originally Posted by judgie

Sports libra saloon. this is were ANY thing that does not fall into the above goes.

This is something akin to the Saloon Libre in Scotland however they limit engine transplants to those of the same manufacture.

By some lateral thinking the current Categories can achieve most of what people are suggesting. It is just that organisers and clubs are taking the Categories as being prescriptive rather than the basis of a sensible class structure.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by SteveM

A standard class is just about impossible to police.

That's about right ....

I could put the standard alloys back on my Saab and replace the atmospheric dump valve for an original recirculating one and from the outside it would appear to be bog standard..

The ECU that is remapped to give some 75bhp over the standard one is invisible......

[SteveM]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

There is a BIG problem with that idea - so many cars roll off the production line with List 1B tyres fitted as standard or even tyres that are not even listed by the MSA.


This sounds more like the current Road-going Category.


This is halfway between the current Road-going and Mod Prod - only one question why?



This is something akin to the Saloon Libre in Scotland however they limit engine transplants to those of the same manufacture.

By some lateral thinking the current Categories can achieve most of what people are suggesting. It is just that organisers and clubs are taking the Categories as being prescriptive rather than the basis of a sensible class structure.

Steve i agree with the last part, what is now the road modified (to give it its old name) i always thought should be a sub class of modprods, but road legal that would then cover all the modified cars running now, and leave the series production class to standard or nearly standard cars. When people start to modify then they move up a class and have to run the safety features of mod prod.

[judgie]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

There is a BIG problem with that idea - so many cars roll off the production line with List 1B tyres fitted as standard or even tyres that are not even listed by the MSA.


This sounds more like the current Road-going Category.


This is halfway between the current Road-going and Mod Prod - only one question why?



This is something akin to the Saloon Libre in Scotland however they limit engine transplants to those of the same manufacture.

By some lateral thinking the current Categories can achieve most of what people are suggesting. It is just that organisers and clubs are taking the Categories as being prescriptive rather than the basis of a sensible class structure.

As i said we need simpler rules and better policing of those rules, i dont pretend to know the solution and dont have the time to work out what needs doing. what ever classes/rules you make somone will bend the rules to give them selfs a advantage.
Tyres are allways going to be a massive part of the advantage in any class but with the wya the legal side of the "track day" tyres is going it wont be long before you cant use them on the roads anyway. I have been told by my tyre supplier that he is finding it harder and harder to even get some of the super sticky rubber.
imho the sort of cars that come of the production lines with with list 1b tyres are not standard production cars anyway, M3 csl, clio cup, 911gt3 etc these are race/track day cars for the road. so would the rules be better if " standard production, stock car on any tyre thats NOT list 1B"
it needs all of us to to help sort this so the more folk that talk now the beeter it should be.

[windy]

How many people have you seen competing in a factory fresh M3 CSL, Clio Cup or 911GT3?

Class system needs to cater for cars already competing and be designed to retain those cars in a competitive environment.

So far most people on here have said their "current cars" will no longer be eligible for their "current class". This is a great way to make people walk from the sport?
Brings a new meaning to the MSA slogan "Go Motorsport"

[johnbull]

I get the impression they're reading too much FIA. Or worse still CSAI.

The great thing about British motorsport was always that it was so simple and uncomplicated.

PLEASE, PLEASE keep it that way.