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  #21  
Old 17-06-15, 08:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmstar View Post
Don't get me on the subject of timing, I've never fully understood why we can't go to transponders as I'm sure they would be much more efficient.
Leaving aside the whole business of transponders and temporary venues (is there a solution? I don't know enough about them), whether using transponders or struts, the car still needs to be lined up to an accuracy of about 3/8" (10mm if you're a youngster) when timing to 1/100th of a second from a standing start. I didn't quite believe whichever timekeeper it was that told me (possibly hasta) initially, but did the sums and it's true. So the work of the startline marshals won't go away by changing to transponders.

However, if the next car approaches the start line as soon as the previous one leaves then the startline crew can get them lined up before the first has reached the safe release point - when running at a 3/4 lap event a gap of about 20 seconds will normally do for safety and do prevent baulking, so the lining up on the strut isn't generally the problem if the next driver is alert, already has their car running, helmet on, belts done up (etc etc) when the previous car is on the line.

In order to get through an event, it requires everyone to be efficient and alert - the start line crew, the drivers, the timekeepers and the course controller. If any of them are slow, time is lost. On a multi-lap event, it may mean a missed release slot and much more than the fifteen seconds of delay due to the driver not being ready when called to the line.


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Originally Posted by Filmstar View Post
I agree the time for the top 12 run offs is sometimes ridiculous, if the car gets hot put bigger radiators on it don't hold up the whole event the same applies to refueling and the 2 minutes rule should be used if as a consequence you miss your run so be it.

That's made me unpopular
Not with me! But I look at the BSC round I'm involved in from the top of the tower doing course control, so am very aware of where the time is leaking away.

If we still had Colerne I'd have more of an incentive to fix my car and compete, so would probably stress less about how long stuff takes....




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Originally Posted by john m View Post
O
Why must you run in reverse order - there is no advantage either way and it wastes more time when runner 4 and 5 are sharing the same car - they need to be gapped front and back
Why must you have the track to yourself - surely car two can be releasd say 30secs after car 1 without any danger of catching
To be fair, Paul sets the running order for the run off to separate shared drives as far as possible (multi-lap events, which form a large part of the BSC calendar, break spectacularly if this isn't done) and does not impose a "only one car on the track at a time" rule onto event organisers - perhaps that's a BHC rule that an organising team has mistakenly implemented?
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  #22  
Old 17-06-15, 08:52
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Originally Posted by onomatopoeia View Post
Having the BSC reduces the maximum entry the event can take, both due to the time that the run off takes away from the time available, and the increased time per car that (in particular) the larger single seaters require compared to roadgoing, modprod or (most) libre cars. I know that's counter-intuitive as they are on the track for the shortest amount of time, but the gaps between them when launching from the start line are the longest and this is what affects how quickly the event progresses, not how quickly they reach the finish.
I would agree that the maximum number of entries may be reduced by as much as 24 (2 runs in the top 12) but not having the BSC present wouldn't mean that the other competitors would get an extra run. As for the "increased time per car" that's not always the fault of the BSC competitors & championship committee. The BSC are not that precious that they insist on "one car at a time on track" for the Top 12. However if the organisers want to go that route then that is up to them. As for the time between cars again it is down to the event organisers. If you give the drivers enough notice of their run slots then they will arrive at the start ready to go. Also given the situation with potential overheating the running order needs to be carefully thought out prior to the event - something that rarely happens. However I can't remember an event when there were no cars on track because we were waiting for a BSC competitor other than in the run-off when as you say the "two minute rule" could apply - BTW where is the "two minute rule" laid down?

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Originally Posted by onomatopoeia View Post
The issue is compounded on multi-lap events due to the narrow windows into which cars can be launched safely by the course controller, meaning if one is missed as the next competitor is not ready then a minute is lost as the car on the circuit has to be allowed to come past the start by a sensible gap, and those minutes add up quickly over the course of a day. Especially when you're staring at a clock and an absolute venue curfew and seeing the former rapidly approach the latter. (I could go on at some length, but Paul is well aware already as I've expressed it all to him often enough! )
So once again it would appear that the fault is with the organisers. I agree that the "multi-lap events" are more difficult to run as it takes experience and confidence on the part of Course Control. However on shorter courses such as Lydden Hill a single lap sprint just wouldn't be worthwhile. It wouldn't be worth the entry fee. the travel & accomodation costs or even the time taken to get to such a remote venue (that's for those North of Birmingham for example). I only competed at Lydden once and for what it cost me I was able to do an Anglesey week-end & Croft the following season.

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Originally Posted by onomatopoeia View Post
So the total entry that can be accepted is reduced to account for it, meaning the cost per competitor must rise. Some events choose to reflect this in a split entry fee reflecting the greater proportion of event time per entrant required on average for BSC contenders, some don't. Clubs must ultimately decide what is most appropriate for them and their members.
Given the amount of time that is being lost during a day according to your accounts then at an event you may just be able to have between 12 and 24 extra entries. However you wouldn't get anymore runs in the day and entry fees would hardly drop (possibly £2.00 per head if at all). Of course the other people who can decide what is appropriate are the competitors. If they don't like the format, or the organisers attitudes to competitors, or the presence of the BSC runners then they can always take the decision to stay at home.
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  #23  
Old 17-06-15, 12:15
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Steve - sorry pal but you are missing the point
"If they don't like the format etc - then they can always stay at home" - that attitude is the reason we have the problems at events that we do - it's 2015 get on the page- it's all about customer service and keeping us coming back
Forget about BSC or not - they or some of their competitors are only part of the problem
A current example for you all - May Anglesey run by MGCCNW(solely- for the first time)A club - and no I'm not a member-with history and tradition
Approx 105 entrants both days - Sat had rain fit for Noahs Ark- 2practise 3timed
Sun mist/fog serious concerns at one point about visibility -but then sun- 2lapper-2practise - FOUR timed
The difference - a club that was determined to make it happen in spite of obstacles - they never stopped asking drivers all day "were we happy with the event"
And timekeepers(Time Team Timing) that had the skills,pride,and software to run 100 cars in 50 mins
That was how to run an Anglesey event
They would have coped with BSC in their stride !!
The crazy thing is that I enjoy being part of the Big events more than anyone !!
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  #24  
Old 17-06-15, 17:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
or the presence of the BSC runners then they can always take the decision to stay at home.
Oh dear Steve, thats not real PR is it?

As one leading Midlands bloke said the other day. British Sprint Championship? Telll me, do they still run that?
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  #25  
Old 17-06-15, 17:13
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See Steve it's not just me that thinks our sport should be less elitist in it's attitude - if every one thought your way then there will be no Nat B "support" to financially carry the BSC
I'm sure that you didn't mean to offend anyone but it's that underlying attitude of "well you know what to do if you don't like it " that is prevelent in certain sections of OUR sport
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  #26  
Old 17-06-15, 17:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
BTW where is the "two minute rule" laid down?
In the General Regulations (unsurprisingly). S9.4.6.


I made no comment about extra runs, nor only one car on the track at a time during the run off (other than to point out that it is not a BSC requirement). Those comments were made by someone else.

While I was primarily trying to give a potential reason for event budgeting / entry fee decisions (which as I said are a contentious subject, even within event committees in my experience), my comments about time per car were general rather than relating to a particular championship round - I've observed it from course control at traditional format and multi lap events, but the impact on the event timetable is greater on multi lap events for the reasons I explained.
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  #27  
Old 17-06-15, 17:17
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Having read the current thread, I thought I would add my view point. Firstly I can confirm that I only have the 1 Gould GR55 and its a “B”

Don’t we all want the same thing ? well organised events, maximum track time, surely if all work together on the day that can be achieved ? and everyone can continue to fully enjoy the sport.

Having come into the sport after many years of absence from competing I found the Northern clubs excellent at organising and running events, especially Liverpool, L& DMC, and the now defunct L& CCC to name but 3, one of the reasons I decided to progress from Nat B events to now competing at Nat A in the BSC , was competing at well run events with maximum track time, certainly compared to Hill Climbs I felt “sprinting” was better value and of late a greater “adrenalin rush”. From experience most of the afor mentioned clubs get good entries, are well organised, have a good crowd, most even stay after timed runs for prize giving to show their appreciation to organiser’s, marhsall’s and volunteers alike.

I am sure it’s frustrating on both sides of the fence when a meeting doesn’t run smoothly, either through what appears to be timing issue’s, competitors who never seem to be ready or waste time or a plethora of other reasons, the list could go on most have been raised in previous comments.
I appreciate with the financial constraints certainly over the past few years its been difficult for both club and competitor alike, but if competitors vote with their feet numbers will decrease further and fewer new bloods will come into the sport not what the clubs needs.

I decided on the BSC for a number of reasons and fully understand that if your not quick enough you don’t get to the top 12 and hence more track time, but I know when I was competing at more Nat B events given the option I would push for maximum track time, when an event is jointly run with NAT A & B it shouldn’t mean as a first resort that we fall back to 2 practice and 2 timed runs to enable the top 12 to take place, it should have been possible to get 3 timed runs in and the top 12 run off this weekend, it required co operation from all...! I still try to enter as many B events to show support to the clubs and friends that have helped me along the way, and I am sure will continue to do so, which brings me full circle don’t we all want the same thing ? hopefully we all do.
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  #28  
Old 18-06-15, 08:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john m View Post
Steve - sorry pal but you are missing the point
"If they don't like the format etc - then they can always stay at home" - that attitude is the reason we have the problems at events that we do - it's 2015 get on the page- it's all about customer service and keeping us coming back
Forget about BSC or not - they or some of their competitors are only part of the problem
By entering an event you are accepting the format laid out in the regulations. For people to then moan about lack of runs or entry fees is rather missing the point. Most clubs make it plain what you will get for you money and competitors can then chose to enter or not. I totally agree with your comments on Customer Service, I was just pointing out that competitors have the option to stay away from events if they don't provide the 'value for money' that they are looking for.
By comparison between the BHC and BSC I would have to say the latter is far less elitist and also visits far more regions of the UK.

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Originally Posted by Fireblade View Post
Oh dear Steve, thats not real PR is it?
Just so you know I stopped going to BSC events at the start of the year due to other commitments. As a result I left the committee so no longer have any official role, also I never was the "PR" officer for the championship.
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  #29  
Old 18-06-15, 13:23
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Having competed at numerous Anglesey events organised by other clubs it has become an expectation that there are more than 2 timed runs (accepting it was in the regs this time as such), perhaps us “Northerners” or “Sprinters” are spoiled in that respect, but as I have said previously if all involved, organisers, competitors, time keepers alike co-operated more perhaps the culture of only 2 practice runs and 2 timed will become a thing of the past.

I still believe it was possible to get 3 timed and the “Top 12” both days, as John Moxhams comment those that competed at the May (Wet) event, know only to well what was achieved on the day in absolutely dire weather conditions certainly on the Saturday, and by a club on their 1st event..!

"On Saturday 13th progress of the event was being observed (by those with significant experience in the course control role, certainly more than me), from the pit lane behind the garages. It was from those observations that far from the "20 second" ideal suggested by "onomatopoeia" in his earlier post to this thread that the club's launch intervals appeared very much greater. That "20 second" interval could have been achieved by launching the succeeding competitor as his predecessor exited "Church" corner. In practice the launch was made as the predecessor was on "Tom Pryce Straight" which was significantly longer, which will explain why the club offered only 2 timed runs rather a than more? So it was an organising club choice and nothing to do with the presence of the BSC"

On another note I would like to thank the Marshalls particularly the paddock marshalls on both days and especially the young “Gentleman” who did an excellent job both days on trying his hardest to get all competitors to holding area and line in good time, he succeeded most of the time but there were exceptions, we need more like him coming through.
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  #30  
Old 18-06-15, 17:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmstar View Post
Don't get me on the subject of timing, I've never fully understood why we can't go to transponders as I'm sure they would be much more efficient.
Unfortunately, we're unlikely to see transponders in speed events.

First problem is that they're not accurate enough on a standing start to time to 1/100ths.
Secondly, they don't grow on trees - in circuit racing, competitors have to provide them. and I suspect they're only available from TSL.
Thirdly, it's only the permanent circuits which have the induction loops required to recognise them.
And that's just for starters.

I'm at Shelsley at the beginning of July, and Loton at the end, so please feel free to come over to the timing box for a chat.
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